Login
Random Layonara Lore
Death and Reflecting
Hey folks, this is going to come off starting to sound like a rant with finger pointing, but hear me out.
I know a lot of you will park your characters some place and go afk for several hours, staying logged in, while your reflection counter ticks down rather than logging out and waiting the "offline" time. In my personal opinion, this is rather rude and inconsiderate in a couple of ways. First, if anyone were to come by and try to RP with your characters, they'd be greeted with silence. It's very much an OOC choice for dealing with a game mechanic, and it could be argued that it is surely not in keeping with the spirit of the world to do so.
Secondly, even though your character is doing nothing, you're consuming bandwidth at the servers and contributing to lag. This of course can make it more expensive to keep the servers up as well as diminishing the game experience for others.
Now, I'd personally rather see people either log out or actually RP (or do something other than combat) while reflecting than sitting idle. Yes, these things contribute to lag and eat bandwidth, but at least something is coming of it. Idling a character while you go to sleep, run to the store or whatever for an hour, two or more serves no purpose except to yourself. I've been seeing more and more of it lately and have often had to boot people off the servers when restarting them because they were afk for extended periods of time.
Having said all this...
I know why people reflect and go afk to reflect and I do understand even if I disagree. I've personally RPed through several long reflection periods and even remained under death effects long after my reflections ran out because I was so involved in it. But that's not always desired, especially among people who would rather engage in more active pursuits, such as combat.
"The offline reflection is too long..."
"If you die early, you're done for the night..."
"But I have a quest in 4 hours..."
I've heard a lot of reasons why, and in fairness, this is partly our fault. As has gone along with another conversation, we want people to take death seriously, but we also want people to be able to have fun. It's a tricky balance sometimes. And I know that in this case at least, you as players are simply making the "best" choice for your character. While I still believe it is not very much in keeping with the spirit of the server, I cannot in good conscience point a finger at you who do this and scold you for doing so.
So...the question I put to you now is this:
If the offline reflection timer was set down to 5 hours instead of 10 hours, would this encourage you to better consider logging out to reflect rather than staying logged on and going afk?
Please take a moment or two to respond to the poll for this.
-- Dorg
- Login to post comments
Comments
Re: Death and Reflecting
Yes. My full question is bolded in the original post, but again...limited characters on the poll to write questions, sadly.
Re: Death and Reflecting
I'd like to see the visual effect of being dead go away so others cannot instantly tell you are reflecting in the first place.
If a character of mine dies and the stone is 'unrecoverable', I log for the night or bring on an alt.
Re: Death and Reflecting
A Proposal:
Out of game recovery: keep the same.
In game recovery:
* Levels 1-3: 10 minutes
* Levels 4-6: 15 minutes
* Levels 7-10: 30 minutes
* Levels 11-15: 45 minutes
* Levels 16-30: 60 minutes
* Level 30+: 75 minutes (capped)
This very loosely corresponds to the resting times, and I think keeps death penalties meaningful, without being punitive or so long that there is no reason to stay on-line.
If in-game lengths are changed, I think there should be a corresponding new server rule:
No player may keep a character in game while reflecting, unless they intend to actually play the character. Players caught AFK for more than a reasonable amount of time (We understand you need to go AFK sometimes) may be subject to DM action; a DM may spawn creatures on the character, decide a wandering magician has transformed the character into a penguin, or take any other action as they see fit.
Re: Death and Reflecting
As I read this post and the recent one the Jrizz started regarding the death system it occured to me that a system that punished death with mandatory offline time could be very effective vice the current loss of SS leading to permadeath. First, if the mandatory time was automatic it would totally eliminate the issues that Dorg is talking about in this post as well as the excuses mentioned since there wouldn't be a choice. If you have a quest that you want to participate in then you may want to consider less risky activities leading up to it since you would have no choice if you died within the mandatory wait time prior to the quest or event. Secondly, it would be even more effective if the mandatory wait time permanently increased with each death...over time the character that dies more will simply get played less since there would be lots of mandatory wait time and I think this in itself would somewhat teach and certainly encourage less risky behaivor. Lastly, it might reduce the complaints of associated with lag deaths since ultimately you wouldn't permanently loose a character due to these kinds of death...instead you would either play smarter or play less as a result of death. Just some thoughts I had on the matter.
Re: Death and Reflecting
I'm with OsX. Take the visual away, and I'd actually be much more inclinded to hang around and RP. As it is, I usually just log. Not that Steel usually dies where he isn't resed or can't get his stone back- in fact, I think I've only had to log due to death maybe two or three times in the last 6 months.
If I wasn't all ghostly, I'd use the time to chat IC with folks, or take some lower-levels exploring on Mistone, since even weakened Steel can play on Mistone. I never understood the ghostly thing, anyway. It's already been determined that the character isn't really "ghostly," but more or less looks haggard, maybe a bit beat up, or just tired. Since there's no way to represent that IG, we make them look ghostly.... or something like that. I say we just let folks RP the effects of death-a new scar, dark circles under their eyes, an incessant cough, etc.-and drop the whole visual ghostly thing.
The more I think about it, I'm amazed at just how much a visual will affect whether I play or don't play a character. I don't mind at all him being weakened and not getting XP. I just don't want to run around ghostly all the time. Crazy.
Re: Death and Reflecting
Honestly, I think a shorter in-game reflection, rather than a shorter out of game reflection would make me more likely to sit around and RP while reflecting... I think that if someone chooses to take the "easy" way and log or play another character, the reflection length should be substantial.
It's been a long long time since I've died in a position where somebody couldn't raise me and I couldn't get to my bindstone, but I often had a lot of fun RPing my reflecting... I personally don't see as much "bench RP" as I used to, which may be part of why fewer characters choose to sit around and reflect, but that's a whole different topic.
And yes, agreed, sitting around AFK while waiting is tacky at the very least.
Re: Death and Reflecting
Out of game recovery: keep the same.
In game recovery:
* Levels 1-3: 10 minutes
* Levels 4-6: 15 minutes
* Levels 7-10: 30 minutes
* Levels 11-15: 45 minutes
* Levels 16-30: 60 minutes
* Level 30+: 75 minutes (capped)
This very loosely corresponds to the resting times, and I think keeps death penalties meaningful, without being punitive or so long that there is no reason to stay on-line.
If in-game lengths are changed, I think there should be a corresponding new server rule:
No player may keep a character in game while reflecting, unless they intend to actually play the character. Players caught AFK for more than a reasonable amount of time (We understand you need to go AFK sometimes) may be subject to DM action; a DM may spawn creatures on the character, decide a wandering magician has transformed the character into a penguin, or take any other action as they see fit.
I personally think that the timer out of game should also reflect the time IG. Simply because the same time ingame passes wither you are in game or not.
Secondly. Your proposition for the new server rule, although I agree with it, would put a considerable amount of work on the gm. As they would have to patrol every area to see if people are moving or talking. Then ask the people that are not what they are doing, then wait there to get an answer.
With each new rules, you have to be able to put the resource behind it to back it up. And sadly this is not a kind of resources that I would like to see here.
I remember when I used to police a Freelancer server with Anamnesis and Nehet. The amount of time that was needed in game to make sure people were following the rules, were astronomical, and quite frankly could take the fun out of playing the game, because we just didn't really have the time to play the game due to our duties as moderators/admins. I don't think I would want any gms here to have to go through this, as they already have so much on their hands. And yes there is having faith on the player base, but this one is just really to much to have to ask out of the gms. In my personal opinion and experience.
Re: Death and Reflecting
If I die....90% of the time I log, my evenings gone and as such its at least 24 hours before I can come back. If you cut the reflection time to one hour max I will hang around and do stuff and RP.
Re: Death and Reflecting
I voted : Yes, but I do that anyway or I continue to play while reflecting.
Mainly because i started another thread a while back complaining that if you don't reflect long enough by going off-line , you need to reflect the times left when you log in again .
5 hours would shorten the time enough so that people can get normal sleep and go on-line again to reflect one more time and be whole again :D
Re: Death and Reflecting
Would reflections also be capped at 5 hours? Currently, Jennara is level 34, so her reflection time is 340 minutes, (5 hours and 40 minutes). Would the reflection length stop at 5 hours, capping off at level 30?
Even 5 hours seems too a long time for reflecting, but I'm not prepared to make a case for a lower cap.
Re: Death and Reflecting
Strange as it may sound, I actually do reflect when Caerwyn gets himself killed! Generally the death is the result of his doing something monumentally stupid (e.g.: charging to the front, not disengaging soon enough, biting off more than he can chew from the outset, etc.). I find that taking that time to review what went wrong (while it's still fresh in my mind) has some real future benefit.
I will confess that I often park him somewhere out of sight from passers by until this actual reflection has been done (largely due to embarrassment), but then I will move him out into the public view and/or send some correspondence (i.e.: tells) to try and enlist aid to return him to his stone.
There have been occasions when the thought of getting back to his stone is plain too dangerous to involve others, and on those occasions I will say so to the other party members and simply wait it out, usually with a drink in hand and often in conversation with the other unfortunates who fell.
The point is that nothing focuses one's attention as much as being stuck inactive! If consideration is being made to change the durations, I would suggest that a level independant off-line duration in conjunction with a regressive on-line duration (lower 'reflection' periods per level for upper level character brackets) might serve well. The time to wake up about the follies of getting killed needlessly is at the lower levels, before Soul Strand loss becomes an driving issue.
Re: Death and Reflecting
I think reflections of all types need to cap at two hours.
Re: Death and Reflecting
http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/186632-biggest-problem-reflections.html#post1265932
Re: Death and Reflecting
I don't think of it as making out of game reflecting longer, but as providing a reward in shorter times for players who stay in game to incentivize RP
My new proposed server rule is really just intended to let players know that it is not acceptable and that consequences can happen to them, with the expectation that they'll police themselves, just as DMs have explicit authority in the server rules to spawn on players who overload up on cnr, or things like that. I'm not trying to put a responsibility on DMs to enforce, any more than they have responsibility for enforcing any other server rule, but trying to make it a community standard, so the purpose of rewarding RP by giving shorter in game resting times isn't defeated by those who would just sit in game while AFK.
Re: Death and Reflecting
There is of course the risk , that if you shorten the reflection-time ic there will be more people that think : it's just a little wait , i'll go eat and drink something .
Resulting in more people afk on-line but for shorter time then it apparently happens now .
Just something that popped into my mind reading over all the other polls ;)
:( this should be in the : What is your opinion on the current length of in-game reflections after death? thread .
Re: Death and Reflecting
Here is my one single problem:
(DISCLAIMER: this is replying to Dorg's first post... that's all I've read as of this post. :p)
You die by accident an hour or so right before a quest. It's your CDQ. Do you go through and fail because some little incident occurs that was out of your control? In all fairness, I'd like to see Gm's have the ability to remove these statuses for quests, especially combat intensive ones. whether the status is restored at the end, I don't care either way, but I'd really hate for some screw-up to ruin a day's worth of RP (ESPECIALLY if it's the one freeday you get every week or so).
other than that, I like the idea. I'm all for it. (it's better than nothing. :) )
Re: Death and Reflecting
Agreed with Dezza on this one. Ten hours or even 5 is a bit too long for people like us who have families or busy schedules to hang around and wait.
Re: Death and Reflecting
I'd like to see offline and online timer be the same. If that's the case, there's no reason to stay online if you're not going to do anything but be AFK. If you chose to stay and RP or go recover your grave, then that works too. I voted for "still too long." My time online reflecting is most often OOCly social via tells to other folks. I very rarely go after a grave.
Re: Death and Reflecting
@Link092
http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/186542-game-death-reflections-poll.html#post1265202
Re: Death and Reflecting
Unless the my grave is easy to recover, I tend to log off and either bring on one of my alternate characters or just call it a night depending on when death occurred.
Re: Death and Reflecting
http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/186542-game-death-reflections-poll.html#post1265202
*makes a homer-like "D'OH!" and smacks forehead.*
heh, forgot that little bit. :p
but atleast it was addressed again just to make sure. :D
Re: Death and Reflecting
I say make an AFK widget!
Re: Death and Reflecting
I agree with PnP on this one. Off-line and online death timer should be the same.
Re: Death and Reflecting
I think Pen N Popper has hit the nail on the head. Why is there a difference between online and offline? Why is one made to reflect longer than the other?
Regards,
Script Wrecked.
Re: Death and Reflecting
On the flip side, getting annoyed that somebody is afk after they've been demoralized and weakened by the death system or are simply parked afk in a remote location is somewhat like saying the following...
"I'd like to lodge a formal complaint against the NPCs that are not possessed by GMs 24/7. I was in Prantz and there was this gnomish inventor, so I asked him, "hey buddy, how much for a pair of lenses?" And he just sat there, unmoving. Very, very rude I think. You see, I have this expectation that the entire world revolves around me, including every person's diaper changes, bio breaks, emergency trips to get more cigarettes, drink spills etc. If they truly cared about the RP, they would schedule their emergency situations and bowel movements to coincide with my sleeping schedule. Now I know this may be hard due to timezone considerations, but it is a minor sacrifice IMO, compared to the horrid indignity suffered by myself for having to shrug, assume that they are busy at the moment and move on to the next character avatar. We can do better, people!"
The thing is, it's a game. If somebody's child just drank drano and has to dial the poison control center and I don't get a hello back from them immediately... I move on and I dont blame them. Now when you're stuck there in a game and told that you cannot progress in adventure or crafting for 6 hours on a sunday afternoon, what do we expect to happen? The argument that they should be spending that time RPing is totally moot, because the first thing people say to you when they see your weak, opaque avatar is "what killed you?" Dead people dont talk. I fail to see how that increases RP.
Maybe if people had a choice to go to an OOC area like the room we have in the login spots that we never get to go to. Or play blackjack in limbo. Read some lore, SOMETHING. But the only other alternative is to sit there and... reflect. And tell people that you were killed, even though you're just opaque, and still quite lively. Can't craft, can't hunt, usually all overencumbered so you can't even explore or travel. Your only choices at that point is log off for 8 hours, afk for 4 hours to save some time, play another character, or sit on a bench and tell people you're dead. If it really did increase enjoyment of RP, all video games would take 4-8 hours to restore a saved game, or the whole memory chip would blank itself after too many deaths.
I think the very fact that some people will keep their computers logged in and running for four hours on a saturday just to save time to get back in game speaks much for the dedication they have for this server. Think how addicted our players are! They would rather "stand in line" for 4 hours than log off and pop in a disc for another game for 8 hours. You have to have the utmost patience and dedication to even consider doing this! Most other players would just get annoyed, log off and log into another server or go outside, burn some calories or something. Layo players are actually so addicted that they will dedicate their computers to four consecutive hours of... doing nothing.
We already have a death system that perms your character at random intervals of death due to mostly crashes, lag spikes and bugs, so is even any amount of time out added to this penalty even necessary? The strand got cut or it didn't, let's not make the poor fellow dwell on it for 4-8 hours. Does the gameplay and RP really improve just because we subject people to copious amounts of downtime?
I for one would rather see time spent logged in taking up bandwidth be spent having fun, not sitting in a penalty box. That's a sad and lonely way to spend a weekend.
Also, for future pollings, please do not load the ballot choices so much. I mean, come on... everybody cares about lag. Don't just lump all opposition to a stance in with a "lag-lover" label. I could do a similar poll that asked "Will you vote for Obama" and had the choices "yes" vs. "No, and I'm racist."
Re: Death and Reflecting
Just my two coppers: When I have had to reflect from death I'm essentially done adventuring for the night. What I do depends on the party at that time. If I can wander off somewhere and chat in that weakened state, I do. I might work on crafting, or set aside some time for the little in game things I meant to do (redecorating, etc).
Otherwise, once I've buttoned up any outstanding issues from the party/self that need my attention after the death I just log out.
Now 5 hours verses 10 hours . . . Might simply mean that I log back in sooner, but once I've hung my hat up for the night it's usually next day when I return. I'm not certain that the 5 versus 10 would make a difference, as I've typically made it a focus to recover my characters corpse, when possible.
Re: Death and Reflecting
The beauty of having all six slots terminally full is that you never get any downtime from Layo, just from playing a certain characters for a night. I just wish it didn't take me 10 minutes after logging in after all that time to rest and get my spells back. Can we shorten the back-end of the rest period by any chance?
Re: Death and Reflecting
While your other points are valid, this one has no basis and is unfair both to Dorg and to your own otherwise reasonable post. The third choice is, "No, it's still too long," which seems to match fairly well with what your other paragraphs say and has nothing at all to do with lag or labeling all 'no' voters poorly.
Re: Death and Reflecting
Sorry if I came across as that way, but it wasn't my intent to be "unfair". I'm just pointing out that the poll could have been better phrased and that it currently is skewed in a manner that gains a pre-destined answer.
"No, it's still too long" supports the main yes response. It's an indication that the only reason the person say's no is because they agree MORE with the main argument, to reduce the time involved.
"No, and I don't really care about lag and bandwidth." is the other choice. Everybody cares about bandwidth. NOBODY's going to vote for that because Nobody enjoys lag.
Opinion poll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This isn't me being mean or "unfair". I love the guy. I just don't like the way this poll's options are worded and I stated why I feel that way. No basis for my view? Unfair to Dorg? Give your reasons for your view instead of claiming I'm unfair to my own post and have no basis.
Re: Death and Reflecting
I'd agree with online and offline times for death being the same. Doing it this way would make sure people didn't go afk and would help reduce any server overheads from people not really playing but just killing time.
And if it's an hour before your CDQ or similar? Well sometimes things just happen and you can't create rules to cover every eventuality.
Re: Death and Reflecting
Let me stop this right here, before the thread gets sidetracked.
The wording of my last choice is to see if there were truly anyone reading and responding that really only cares about the state of their character, not what lag they're causing or how much of Leanthar's bandwidth they're consuming while doing nothing. I wasn't going to turn around and accuse people of anything as a result, but it would be interesting to know.
I'd say some people care more about lag when it affects them, not when it's because of them.
So full apologies if that seemed "loaded". It wasn't my intent, and unfortunately, I only have so many characters to use when typing the options (there's a maximum length).
Re: Death and Reflecting
I have always felt the log off timer was too long. I would like to see the log in and game timer be the same, or at worse case the log out time be double the log in time. I also have never liked that people can see you have res sickness. I know that wasn't asked in the poll, but just thought I would throw that out there and agree with osX.
Re: Death and Reflecting
Maybe it is a bad choice of words all around, with enough blame for all of us. For my own part, maybe I got carried away when responding. Sorry.
I don't think that "yes, that's short enough" and "no, that's still too long" are the same answer to a question specifically about whether shortening the time by five hours would be enough to convince people to log out rather than park and go afk. The 'no' answer doesn't support the 'yes' answer at all; it's a clear 'no.'
What exactly is the predestined answer to "Is five hours short enough to make you log out rather than park afk," by the way? I honestly don't know and feel that I must have missed something. It is mainly a question of time, right?
Re: Death and Reflecting
The wording of my last choice is to see if there were truly anyone reading and responding that really only cares about the state of their character, not what lag they're causing or how much of Leanthar's bandwidth they're consuming while doing nothing. I wasn't going to turn around and accuse people of anything as a result, but it would be interesting to know.
I'd say some people care more about lag when it affects them, not when it's because of them.
So full apologies if that seemed "loaded". It wasn't my intent, and unfortunately, I only have so many characters to use when typing the options (there's a maximum length).
I totally understand Dorg, and did not mean that to be insulting or unfair to you in the least. Surely I don't think that you intended to give a loaded poll. This is just one of those things that my journalism and research methods instructors have drilled into our heads. I meant it as advice to reduce polling error, not an accusation of unfairness. Sorry if I came across that way.
Re: Death and Reflecting
I must add that death brings great chances to RP the vulnerabilitties of the character, I have gotten some of my best RP experiences meanwhile reflecting. but if there is nothing gained from staying logged, I call it a night, or bring my other character.
I enjoy a lot to be able to RP while reflecting, death must make our characters more wise ( specially after losing a soul strand ). And RP the fact that you are reflecting and weak with people around is a great way to show that learning and develop your character.
Anyhow one must think in the comunity also, and if there is noone to RP this one must leave the chances to the ones who could actually do something to develop their characters.
In my humble opinion.
Re: Death and Reflecting
This was the option I would have voted for as well. To me that makes the most sense to solve the problem.